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Thursday, February 16, 2012

Mor on The Paiute Tail (sic)

First let me say I’m glad I woke some of you up! Ahhhh, some of you anyway ;-)

Second, let me commend many of you on providing your honest and heart-felt opinions and thoughts on this matter in a civil manner with words you wouldn’t be embarrassed to use in front of your wife and kids.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion – even me ;-)

And to all of you who’s comments were foul-mouthed and angry threats, I wonder if your words show your true character. I’m not sure if it’s your anger that saddens me more, or your personal attacks against me. Am I not entitled to have an opinion that’s different than yours?

I love the passion that people have for our sport. It is important for us to be so passionate about these things. I just love it more when it comes across as a passion from responsible adults rather than like angry children.

Next, let me answer all the comments about me being anti UTV. Have those of you with those accusations ever watched our show? I absolutely love UTVs! If I had to have only one machine it would no doubt be a 50” RZR! I’ve had one since they came out! (And to the handicapped person’s rather disgusting comments, you may not realize that I have a ‘special needs’ daughter that the only way she can explore the great back country that I love so much, is along with me in a UTV. I have stated many times that if the extreme environmentalists manage to close our back country access she’ll never be able to see the beautiful country that so many of us take for granted). But if I explore 50” trails we’ll use a 50” machine.

I have had an assortment of UTVs around my places for many years – many, many years! I love the Ranger EV that we had for a year, the Mule Diesels we had for several years, the Ranger Crew, and the RZR XP900. Yes, that’s right, the XP 900. We had one here for almost a year. I even built a race track on my property just so I could  enjoy wringing it out! And while I think it’s a great machine for the deserts and the tracks and the sand dunes, it was not designed or intended to explore the Paiute Trail.

And if I didn’t make myself clear, I apologize. It was not my intention to lump all UTV users in the same group. Hey (!) as I said, I love UTVs so I would have obviously been accusing myself as well.

Most misunderstood was my point that (I think!) more than any other segment, I see a great many highly modified UTVs with wider arms, long-travel suspension, and exhaust modifications that while perfectly at home cruising the dunes or exploring areas like the open Johnson Valley OHV area, they are not the vehicle to explore the back country of the Paiute Trail. And my point was too, that these machines are ‘more often than not’ owned by younger riders/owners from the city that show up to the trails merely to blast around, using the trails as you would desert sand washes, not for scenic riding, but for entertainment. Broad generalizations I agree, but again, I thought I had the right to state ‘my opinion’ on these things. If not when did things change that only you could have an opinion?

And furthermore, if you look at some of the comments that ‘First’ made, you’ll see that while there are around 570 miles of 50” trails, there is over 2100 miles of trails open to all vehicles! And that is just on one portion of what can be loosely described as the Paiute Trail country. If you counted the areas surrounding the ‘actual’ Paiute Trail, you’ll find the number closer to 10,000 miles of trails open to ALL vehicles! My comments regarding ‘the Paiute Trail’ were addressed directly to the fact that we need to have more 50” trails open only for 50” OHVs and under, and promoted the area’s 50” trails more to that market rather than the promotion of the trail to the UTV users from other types of riding. There is plenty of other riding trails for the wider vehicles, but few 50” trails!

I see many of you reading between the lines to things that were not at all my intent. An example is the reference to high-powered buggies at Glamis and rock buggies in Moab and assuming I was categorizing UTVs in those groups. All I can say is just read the words I wrote.

To those of you referencing my comments to fit the area where you ride, all I can only say I was referring to the Paiute Trail only.

Maybe that clears up my initial Blog a bit. If so, thanks for sticking with me. I thought I’ve been in this industry too long to be so misunderstood. If not then maybe I am left with nothing more than to say (very loosely paraphrasing Thomas Jefferson), that I fear for my sport when I realize who’s a part of it.

And to the person that made the disparaging comments about my faith – you left me speechless in my bewilderment about the way people express their feelings anonymously on the internet.

And to Shannon, the fact that you hate my opinion is one thing, but giving out the private email addresses to industry PR managers was certainly more harmful to their privacy than it was to me. You should be ashamed. Your vengeful behavior based on my personal opinion is disgraceful.

Hopefully I can end with “My apologies for the misunderstanding, and thanks for understanding!”



  1. I guess I don't understand the concept that you have more of a right to "scenic" ride than I do to ride for entertainment.

  2. Doug - I fear you still do not understand why your comments dug so deep for some people. Those young folks that you accuse of "show[ing] up to the trails merely to blast around, using the trails as you would desert sand washes, not for scenic riding, but for entertainment" are not going to read your comments. Those of us that actually participate in the 'Sport' are going to read your comments. And those that are against our sport are going to read your comments. So, when you use your 'opinion' to speak about our sport in a way that casts a bad light on any part of it (ie UTV's), then you give power to those that want to ban us all. Your argument was valid, and needs to be discussed, but (as you saw) your comments didnt open it up for discussion, it drove a wedge between you and the vast majority of the UTV crowd. And then you commented about how we dont all need to work together. We do need to work together - to educate those that you mention, to fight against those that want to close our trails, to keep local legislation OHV friendly. These are the things that we should be focusing on....

  3. My wife and I attended the Paiute Trail UTV Jamboree in 2010 with our Polaris Ranger 700. In 2011 we brought our XP900 and had a blast cruising the trails. There were usually 20 to 30 atv's/utv's on each ride. We hardy went any faster than 20 mph. We were going to attend again this year but according to you, our XP900 was not designed or intended to explore the Paiute Trail. We will spend our money somewhere else.

  4. Your good in my book (we emailed the other day about the XTRs). I wish we had the luxury of so many miles of trails for 60" vehicles over here. unfortunately Im stuck hauling my rides many hours just to have a 20 mile trail. I could only dream of having so much in my back yard.

  5. Doug, this is truly weak. First its not your PERSONAL opinion. It is a professional opinion You are suppose to be a professional. You gave up a personal opinion when you put yourself in the positon of being a media celebrity. You are are hardly a typical rider.

    You should be held to a higher standard. Clearly you dont hold those standards for yourself.

    If anyone should be ashamed it is you You decided to make an anti-UTV rant, and got called on it.

    You said that Extreme Rock crawlers are the reason Moab is having problems, that fast sand cars are the reason that Glamis has problem and then concluded that UTVs are the reason the Paiute will have problems.

    You solution to save the Paiute trail is to limit UTV access enough that UTVs will go somewhere else.

    If that isn't an anti-UTV stand I dont know what is.

    It is time the Manufacturers that have been supporting you take a second look at how you represent this sport.

  6. Doug, I'm sorry for pouring fuel on the flame, so to speak, with my comments. They were out of line, and I should know better than to speak out in anger. It’s hard to keep a level head when people get so offensive, and you deserve some props for keeping yours. If only it was easier to clearly portray our opinions and thoughts in writing!!! It’s not very easy to run the gauntlet alone, and I’m sorry if I made it harder.

    1. Wow! Thanks Dan. You're response is what I was hoping for.....

  7. You spelled more wrong.

    Proofread your title

  8. Doug,

    I commend you for reading our posts and understanding how upset your blog has made many of us including myself. I really do disagree with most of what you said and you really did not help change my mind with this blog. Lets boil it down to this. I have the largest stock UTV on the market, the new Teryx4. I am 62" wide and 1600lbs. What do you possible think my extra 12" is going to do to your trails. I am willing to tell you that most of the ATV's will do much more damage tehn I will. Should we make UTV only trails and ban ATV's on some trails becuase in my opinion sport quads have a tendancy to ride way to fast and love to rip and dig. I dont want this at all. I think ALL, yes ALL trails open to OHV should be class 1 and 2. again, I dont buy your argument at all and think it would make no difference what so ever to the trails you sepak of other then to make anti UTV people happy. Seriously think about it. 12". 12" Doug is going to simply ruin that trail system. That is just not a well thought out argument from someone who claims to be an OHV suporter.

    1. I understand your concerns Kevin. Do you realize how hard it is to state an 'opinion' and then have both faceless and nameless so-called enthusiasts say such vile and horrible things about you? Some of the forums had such lies about me that I struggled to even read them.

      I was definitely not understood completely, and a lot of that blame I put on a person I've know for a long time, Shannon Bushman AKA Red Man on many of the forums, that has a serious personal vendetta against me. His vicious personal attacks on me caused a lot of good folks to jump on the band wagon without really understanding fully what I was referring to.

      As I said, I am certainly not anti-UTV in any way, but I see two things; we need to spend more effort promoting 50" trails and less to UTVs simply because many of the UTVs showing up to 'ride' the trails are not regular UTVs, but the more 'extreme' long-travel, loud exhaust machines that are far more fitting for the sand dunes and the open deserts.

      I personally enjoy both the 50" trails in my RZR and ATVs as well as the other trails in my larger UTVs.

      I think it was sad that a single man with an agenda against me got so many good people riled up over something that wasn't really there.

      Thanks for writing. I do appreciate hearing from you.

    2. Doug, Please epxlain the personal Vendetta I have against you? I for one am at a loss to understand this. -Shannon

    3. No Doug, you made a accusation here on your public forum, serve it up. Explain to all you readers why on earth I would have some sort of silly vendetta against you. You made the accusation here, lets have it out here. -Shannon

  9. As a person that had a response to your initial blog, I respect your effort to clarify. I also agree that the content of many of the responses was not only harmful but disgusting. We owe it to our future generations to preserve not only our riding areas but our right to freedom of speech, which should be respected.

    When I visit the Paiute trail with my ATV and UTV I hope I happen across you and you might share your obvious love for the area with me and my family.



    1. Thank you for your newest comment Chris. The personal attacks were an EXTREMELY hard thing to deal with. You certainly don't have to agree with me but I always hope that we can discuss our differences without dropping to such lows as lies and personal attacks. And, as a person that 'tries' to be an example to my family, the language was hurtful and will remain something I think about for some time to come.

      Please be sure and stop me if you EVER see me on the trails.

  10. Pure BS. Crawfishing at its best!

  11. While your new blog will hopefully clear up some of the issues, I fear the damage has already been done. Any negative press toward the UTV crowd will be dealt with harshly, since we are already not liked in many areas.

    Because of what I do for a living, (I make Victory parts) I work very closely with motorcycle dealers, and I know for a fact that locally (Pitt PA) the Polaris dealers are selling more RZR's than ATV's right now. So, your original comments are hard to swallow.

    No... I don't live close to where your trails are... but I grew up in SoCal, and I've always fought stupid legislators wanting to close land. Going way back into the 80's, there were threats of Glamis being closed, and the Left-wings of the Sierra club were always trying to close the racing we had in the desert. (I raced SCORE for a long time)Even with the EPA... they tried to cut usage with the stupid Orange/red/purple stickers.

    When I moved to Pitt, I wound up selling all of my off-road bikes because all the land was closed. I've been fighting for the past 12 years to get land opened, and now we are starting to see some public land. Originally, there was some public land open to 4-wheelers, but not to Dirt bikes. It was because of the same kind of short sightedness, of your last article, where some one in the public view thought 2-wheeled dirt bikes caused more damage than a 4-wheeler.

    The way I see it... if you discriminate toward a group... (especially one you are supposed to be supporting) you will get in trouble. If there is a specific section of trails that need to be used for "Sight Seeing" only... then the answer is not to ban a group, but instead, put a speed limit on that section of trail. (But there needs to be places for the faster groups too) Heck... the "Jeep" world were the guys who pushed the "Tread Lightly" motto, so you cant use size and weight as a defense.

    Anyway... As I already said, the damage is done, and a rebuttal post is only for damage control when you know you've been outed.

    I'm now 40 years old, and ride a 50" RZR because of the abuse I did to my keens and back, racing SCORE, and I'll be dammed to let any set of trails get closed because someone (and I do mean "ONE") didn't like what they saw while on the trail themselves.

    Your apologies are accepted, but as long as your original blog is posted... the damage is out there. Personally, I would just delete it, and post over it saying.... "Sorry."

    1. Thanks for your comments. I appreciate your take on al of this. I too grew up in SO Cal and that's part of my frustration. I must admit though that in all my years I've never been so viciously and falsely attacked by the extreme environmentalists as I was from this certain group of UTVers.

      Fortunately I've found that the vast majority of rabble-rousing was done by one single individual (Shannon Bushman, AKA Red Man on the forums) as part of a personal vendetta against my belief for an expansion of more 50" trails in the Paiute trail system.

      As far as the damage? I think I was (as promoted by Shannon Bushman as I read his comments on the forums) grossly misrepresented. I am not against UTVs at all, but simply see that the more 'extreme' UTV machines trying to use the many 50" trails of the Paiute trail system is causing a lot of hard feelings.

      What many people do not see is the growing hatred against us all by the locals in the areas around the trail systems. Is that hatred due us all? I think not. I think it is aggravated by a few users.

      I will continue to preach the value of more 50" trails...

  12. Everyone is quick to jump on D, but after he clarifies his opinion no other comments or back tracks for the over reaction.


    1. Thanks. Everyone was quick to jump in for the kill, but few have bothered to man up and apologize. Those that have I commend. Even those that do not agree with me but are willing to calmly discuss those differences I appreciate.

  13. Well said. I was amazed at how many of your readers didn't understand your posting, and even more amazed at how many personal attacks were directed at you and your family.

    1. It was both shocking to me and (obviously) very hurtful. I was pretty angry at the comments but have since realized that the trouble was stirred up by a single person, Shannon Bushman, AKA Red Man on the forums who evidently has a very personal vendetta against me.

      And I now so very much appreciate the newer, nicer comments from so many.

      I will sleep better tonite.

  14. Just now been reading the initial blog and all the comments. Pretty interesting comments and opinions on a subject, atv vs. utv, that has been bouncing around for the past five years. I predict it will not go away soon.

    I do have a couple of corrections, or maybe clarifications to your latest post. The 570 miles of 50" trail and 2100 miles of roads open to all are route figures for all of the Fishlake National Forest, not just the Paiute Trail Area. Your statement of their being 10,000 miles of route open to all vehicles would be true only if you include the Manti, Dixie and surrounding BLM lands into the mix.

    Your pitch for more 50" trails isn't going to happen. What we have is what we have. God isn't making any more land, and the Forest Service isn't going to be making any more 50" trails. So, we better learn to live with what we have and we better start getting along. The one thing that can happen is that the FS might take away some of what we have. Let's not give them an excuse to do so.

    One last thing. The FS is only opening two segments of the Paiute to 60". This is being done to enable UTV access around the system. It was necessary to open Wades Canyon and Merchant Creek to make it possible for wider units to travel the system. Where there are alternative routes for the wider machines, the under 50" segments are being retained and defended.


    1. Thanks for your comments. Yes, the additional mileage I referred to was including the surrounding areas.

      "What we have is what we have" Why? And my whole point with the original blog was why promote the non-50" trails? Why not spend more time and energy promoting the 50" trails. That I believe is what will be more beneficial to the trail system in the long run. After all, how many 50" trail systems are there, especially compared to the number of 'open' trails?

  15. Thank you for you comments. I really do want to hear from you.

    I unfortunately had to turn on the 'moderator' for the comments so I could keep out the comments with language I wouldn't want seen.

    Thank you for understanding.

  16. As the handicapper who posted the "disgusting" comment on your original blog post ["I'm handicapped and can't straddle an ATV so if my Ranger gets banned I'm going to hunt down Doug and thrash him with my walker."], apparently you couldn't see the humor amidst all the bashing.
    I'm not buying your thinly veiled attempt at back-peddling. You clearly stated your feelings that the Paiute should be off limits to UTVs due to the alleged extensive damage they cause there and elsewhere. This is simply unsubstantiated BS and you do need to be called out for it for the fraud you are. No joke & no sarcasm this time--you are a threat to our sport and are using your position here as a "bully pulpit" to advance your personal agenda.

    1. I greatly appreciate your newest comment and my ability to respond. If you read my blog rather than the grossly misstated comment on the forums by posted by Shannon Bushman (AKA Red Man) you will see that I am not against UTVs on the trails at all. I am for more promotion of the 50" trails that made the Paiute Trail system famous, and less promotion to the 'extreme UTVs' that are coming to 'ride' the area's trails. As you should know, and as I again stated, I am an AVID UTV fan, and like your NEED a UTV to reach the great back country with my daughter.

      What I am against is the promotion of the trails through booths at the Sand Sports Super Show, and media venues than are primarily promoting the extreme use of UTVs. And I am NOT against these UTVs either! I am an 'old' desert racer myself and certainly respect the new breed of long-travel, high-performance UTVs. I just don't think we need to be promoting 'their' use on the 'Paiute ATV Trail'. I think more time should be directed to promoting it's 'original' intent, and that's the scenic exploration on tight and narrow ATV trails.

      And it's not my fault that the only 50" trail legal UTV is the RZR! I have in fact openly and aggressively approached all the other manufacturers about producing a 50" UTV and they flatly say NO! I have even approached two different fabrication companies about producing kits to convert other brand ATVs into 50" UTVs but have not because of liability concerns.

      You are right, with all the hatful comments coming at me I saw humor in nothing. I regret you are not able to see my reasoning that there can be two sets of trails. If we don't set limits then where does it stop? All trails banned.....

      I don't hate UTVs and i don't hate back country travel. I hate the thought of loosing that privilege (right) because of unrestrained promotion to a come all system.

    2. Doug you need to re-read your rhetoric laying the blame for trail destruction solely on UTVs. In my experience riding scenic trails in small or large groups--of all ages--its the cycles and sport quads ("ATVs") that are constantly throwing roosts, fishtailing, riding the tops of berms,etc (sound familiar?). UTVs with their fat tires and wide stance simply don't cause this kind of damage.

  17. I am responding about the first and second blogs together. First, Lets assume that only 50 inch machines can get on the trail because of the gates. That means we are talking about the Polaris RZR which can get on the trail. This machine is 970-1000 lbs. The 4x4 Can Am and Polaris Sportsman are 800+ pounds. There is only a difference of -200 pounds at most. They arent very much heavier. Second, ATVs are faster than RZRs for the most part on the trails because of their smaller width and higher top speeds. Even the Honda TRX450 is the same top speed as the RZR. Race a Can Am Renegade versus any UTV and you know it would easily beat a UTV. Power to weight ratio wins. For the most part, UTVs go slower than ATVs because of the size of them! Also most of the time if they have a second passenger they are out for a joy ride not a speed ride! Lastly, with ATVs weighing up into the 800+ pound range, With a roll cage and seat belts I would rather roll a UTV over an 800 pound ATV any day of the week! They are much safer in an accident because of the protection a UTV offers over an ATV.

    The real problem lies in the overuse of the trail. Limit how many riders are using it at a time, and the trail system will be able to recover better. Overuse is the issue, not ATV versus UTV.

    1. I totally agree! That's EXACTLY why I prefer a RZR myself. Plus there's more around you in case you do run into one of those 'racers' out on the wider trails.

      You are absolutely right about over use or maybe more correctly stated the lack of responsible use of the trails
      My point was not at all ATV v UTV, but the type of UTV users that seem to be showing up with the extra wide, extra loud, and extra fast UTVs that are wanting the same access to the current 50" - many of which aren't gated, just signed.

      And the fact that the trail was originally designed to be a 'separate' set of trails for the narrower machines.

  18. Just because the new Arctic Cat Wildcat (64") (for example) sits on the showroom floor next to the 750i LTD (47.5") (for example) does not mean that someone who buys the Wildcat can or should ride the same trails that the LTD can fit on. The future of OHVs is in trouble if people continue to purchase bigger and bigger machines and expect to ride in areas that historically were limited to 50" or less.

    Non of this has anything to do with ATV v. UTV. Its all about using machines in their proper place and protecting riding areas from closures.

  19. Doug,

    It's also about affordability. The family that has a budget has to decide on what machines to buy. They might buy a 4 seat Ranger so they can all ride together or they might buy a combination of UTV & ATV based upon other activities like hunting or their main source of living like ranching, farming, surveyors etc so they have multi use vehicles. That same buyer has to have the budget to haul the machines.

    Another consideration is that some people "trick" their machines for looks for whateer their personal reasons. It doesn't always mean they'll use them inappropriately. Don't tar the type of machine, consider how it's used.

    The problem is that while our various agencies such as the NFS & BLM have grown bigger and bigger staff and buildings, there is less and less enforcement and enforcement is the key.

    My family and our friends are trail riders but we have big bore 4wd EPS equipped machines because of comfort and ease of use. Plus as old farts we carry tons of extra junk with us "just in case".

    But nothing is so welcoming on the trail as seeing the enforcement folks. They are a resource and they protect our use of the resource. Last year riding in the Snowy Range of Wyoming the extra enforcement by the county in cooperation with the NFS sure seemed to keep a lot of trouble out of the woods.

    I don't think you'd generalize about ALL types of Dodge owners or All types of 4x4 owners and that what your column(s) read like. Lets campaign for keeping the trails open responsibly and managed rather than the bureaucratic idea of management - close it.

    1. Very good points and I agree, but to use your Dodge truck example, let's say we both enjoy some really nice UTV trails with our families and gear (because, like you that's what I enjoy!) and all of a sudden a bunch of people show up in lifted 4wd trucks with 40" mud tires, loud exhausts, 12 driving lights across the roof, and beds filled with stereo speakers and hot tubs!

      While you want to treat everyone nicely, and you know that everyone has a right to enjoy the country, wouldn't you rather there were some trails set aside specifically for UTVs and then all the other trails for both UTVs and the stereo-blasting, mudswamper equipped 4x4s? And wouldn't you hope that the local businesses might show more responsibility promoting the area to families rather than the stereo-swampers? And wouldn't you be a little amazed when the stereo-swapers get angry because they want to access the same trails as you?

      DISCLAIMER: For those of you reading this I meant no respect for 4wd trucks with large tires and beds filled with stereos and hot tubs. And I did NOT reference the UTV users as Stereo-Swampers or other labels.

  20. No, you just drew a journalistic parallel describing how UTVs are to ATVs as lifted 4wd trucks with 40" mud tires, loud exhausts, 12 driving lights across the roof, and beds filled with stereo speakers and hot tubs are to Dodge Trucks. Nice Job.

  21. You have a keen knack for reading into what I write as you see fit ;-)

    Please re-read the above comment by me and then your inference.
    Then please re-read my original blog about the Pauite Trail and then you post that you put on the forums.
    You infer incredibly negative things about UTVs that I never said.
    The outcome from which has only been to stir up trouble and nothing else.
    And that you have done so for no reason that I can see other than to discredit me or else we'd be having this discussion in a gentleman;y fashion in private.

    Shannon, Please move on. You certainly know what's going on in my life at this time and so you know that I have for more important things needing to be done in my life than have this silly match with you.

    It is dust.

  22. Ah, I get it. You don't want to be held to account for what you actually write, but rather from some nebulous meaning we are suppose to infer. What you are promoting here has a significant negative economic impact on the businesses that make a good portion of their living from the Paiute trail. You seem to have little regard for the damage your recommendations would have to them. Well I do.
    In that regard it is NOT a silly match at all.

    You are suppose to be a journalist. I am not, but I know enough about to see the parallels you are drawing disparaging people who ride UTVs, its painfully obvious.

    You have also made this whole thing out as though I have some sort of personal vendetta against you and despite my inquiry as to what that possibly could be you have ignored me and continue to state that it is so.
    Its not true Doug and you know it. You are simply using that to deflect attention from what you are promoting in your blog.

    And no I have no idea whats going on in your personal life, I'm sorry if you are having problems.

  23. Oh come on Shannon! You know very well that I take care of a sick wife and a handicapped daughter. You know because you've been to my house! You know because you know how seldom I could go riding with you and your friends!

    If you don't know then it is indeed a sign of your shallowness and lack of care for others.

    Either way, it no longer matters. Now please move on with your life.


  24. Ok I get it now. I thought you were referring to something new. I am sorry for your troubles.

    However, I fail to see how that elevates you above defending a postion you have taken that directly impacts other peoples lives.
    Nor do I understand how that has anything to do with the accusation you have made that the only reason I want this discussed is because I have a personal (as yet unidentified) vendetta.
    I will move on with my life when I am convinced that your biased and inflammatory position taking aim at UTVs on the Paiute is sufficiently discharged.

    I think your position is based purely on your personal opinion of UTV riders. You categorized them as the reason for the Paiute Trails impending doom and then proposed a solution that
    would take care of the problem. Namely restricting access to trails. You know the USFS is going to open some trails to 60" and you want that stopped because you think UTVs are a problem.
    You have used arching generalization several times to paint UTVs as the class of riders that we must find a way to essentially chase away.

  25. Both of you guys are ambassadors to the off road sport. My wife & I have been to Utah 15 times now to ride. Where did we find out about it? From watching your TV program Doug and from ATVUtah website Shannon. I would expect that if folks like you who are watched have differences that you would not toss them out there for anyone to pass judgement on either of you. I think you both have some good qualities opinions and can be a positive influence in the OHV community. This way is destructive to the image of off roading. Dont we have enough opposition already? Why dont you guys get together for lunch, or better yet take a two day ride together in the machine of your choice. I still have a lot of respect for both of you and we need you both out there promoting that which we love...riding. By the way I have met both of you personally and know you to be good men. We need more like you as voice for the rest of us who are not in the limelight but this way is not going to help. Email??

    1. For the record I have nothing to do with, never have.

    2. Surprised to hear you say that since you have been a member on there for 10 years and have posted over a thousand times and are listed as a moderator. I didnt suggest you owned it, only that it is a site that is in the limelight. By the way it is where I found your reference to this discussion. My mistake on your involvement with it. :)
      Hope you guys work it all out.

    3. I've been a member of atvutah for over 10 years also. Does that make me atvutah also? Being a member and a moderator does not imply ownership or that they represent the website.

  26. "And wouldn't you hope that the local businesses might show more responsibility promoting the area to families rather than the stereo-swampers?"

    In your statement, are you referring to the UTV Jamboree in Marysvale as being an irresponsible promotion of the Paiute trail?
    I have been to several ATV & UTV rallies, and the UTV Jamboree is without a doubt the most family friendly off-road event I have ever been to! The median age must be around 55 years old! (Not including the family dog!)

    My FAMILY and I have attended all 3 of the UTV Jamborees so far, and there was only one time I can recall that some jackass was acting in a way not appropriate for a "Family event". He took off his muffler and went racing up the street. That lasted only minutes, because people politely told him to quit! Yes, you read that correctly! People were policing themselves. That is what you need to be preaching, not segregation!

    Not every UTV driver is an idiot, and not every ATV driver is a saint. The 50” restriction does NOTHING to stop an ATV rider with his 1000 cc engine from going 70 MPH down the 50” trail.

    You are way off base on this one Doug.

    Also, if you want to talk about “Overuse” talk about how many extra sets of wheels are taken off the trail when a group of people piles into a 2 to 6 seat UTV and leaves the other 1 to 5 ATVs home!

  27. Just to let everyone know I am First here, my friends call me Kenny.

    I am my own mouthpiece and no one else’s.

  28. Interesting way to try and back off of your originally anti-ohv stance. However, the one thing that is glaringly omitted is you still have no explanation of your broad brush, and false, use of "facts" regarding the ISDRA, injuries, and environmental "damage". Just like the typical anti-ohv eco-nazi, you throw out an unfounded statement hoping no one will actually catch the b.s., and when someone does, you simply ignore it, hoping no one will again notice.

    You have an ulterior motive, and appear to be a splinter cell member of the eco-terrorists who's desire is to steal the public lands of this country from their rightful owners as an end to their foolish little eco-religion. I still say "Reader Beware".

  29. My wife and I, age 47/42 not kids by any means, and are avid UTV'rs and purchased the XP 900 to support all of our loves for the outdoors. We cannot afford to own a separate utv/atv for each specific type of riding and we shouldn't be expected to. We selected a unit that would allow us to enjoy both the high speed open areas such as Glamis as well as the slow scenic trails in the mountains. I take offense to the fact that you are stereotyping and being prejudice towards everyone that chooses to have a utv with more room, is more comfortable, has more power for when it is needed and a nice plush ride from the so called long travel suspension. Not fair to lump all of us into one category and make assumptions that because we have this type of UTV that we will abuse it. Don't judge a book by its cover, just because it looks fast and aggressive doesn't mean that it will be used in a destructive manner. Didn't we learn anything from this type of prejudice in the past??? It does not help our sport in any form of the word.

    1. There is a misunderstanding here that I don't like and don't want UTVs on the trails. Far from it. What I was proposing is an expansion of more 50" trails. And don't confuse that with no UTVs because Polaris also makes a 50" RZR - several actually!

      With only about 600 miles of 50" trails and several thousand miles of open to everything trails I was trying to make a case for simply expanding the ATV (50" trails that would include RZRs) and promoting those trails more.

      And while you can never group all people in a category, my point with wide UTVs was the number of them that totally disrespect the 50" trails! So, why should the area spend time and effort to promote bringing more UTVs in when they are destroying the 50" trails? If it continues they will no longer, and they are by far the best part of the Paiute Trail experience.

      Let the UTVs come, but promote the Paiute Trail as its 'original intent' as a scenic 50" wide 2 track trails system.

      So while I may have painted the UTV damage with a broad brush, without getting the offender's names, that about as specific as I can be. If you don't ride where you're not supposed to then there's no problem...

    2. You may be proposing more 50" trails, that's fine, but you continue to categorize anyone with anything other than a 50" or less utv or a standard atv as not wanted on the trails. With all of your reference to the type of vehicles (long travel suspensions, loud pipes, stereos, etc.) that you feel don't belong here assuming that they will destroy the trails and ruin the experience for everyone else, how can it be construed any other way? I don't see any misunderstanding, only misrepresentation on your behalf. You keep referring to the types of vehicles instead of placing emphasis on the types of people. Any vehicle will destroy the trails as long as they are in the hands of irresponsible people. Trail width restrictions have absolutely nothing to do with this and adding more restrictions will not help.

    3. The point I'm making is that 'certain people in UTVs' are destroying the 50" trails. In other words going where they should not be. Some people think the answer is make all the trails open to UTVs. I think we need more 50" trails and more promotion of them.

    4. The problem with the way you have presented yourself throughout this entire blog is that you are blaming the utv for the actions of a few and not holding the people responsible for their actions. This blog should have never even addressed the 50" trail width or place any kind of blame on the utv's. You have misrepresented the utv/atv community and classified anyone that chooses to have a faster, more capable utv as a hoodlum that should not be on your trails. Quote "we need to spend more effort promoting 50" trails and less to UTVs simply because many of the UTVs showing up to 'ride' the trails are not regular UTVs, but the more 'extreme' long-travel, loud exhaust machines that are far more fitting for the sand dunes and the open deserts." and "all of a sudden a bunch of people show up in lifted 4wd trucks with 40" mud tires, loud exhausts, 12 driving lights across the roof, and beds filled with stereo speakers and hot tubs!" I may choose to have these items and they may be visible at any given point in time, but in no way should this lead you to believe that I will disrespect the trails and people there. There are times and places for every type of activity and the equipment does not dictate the person and/or attitude. You have placed all the blame on the machine and not the user. Guns don't kill people, people kill people...Utv's don't destroy trails, careless people destroy the trails. Straight up, you have done our sport a great injustice that I fear is now irreparable.

    5. I think DE is trying to use the law of averages or profiling. While not every person who owns a RZR XP will drive it like a bat out of hell, and not every person on an ATV will be a saint; a much higher percentage of drivers in each case will be. More times than not people with the wider stance vehicles with more horsepower are going to tend to driver them faster than say a standard 50" RZR. AND YES I KNOW THAT IS NOT THE CASE EVERYTIME, TALKING ABOUT AVERAGES HERE. It may not always be fair but ask all the non radical Muslims that are here in the US that get stereotyped in with the bad. It may not be fair, but I dont see any 80 year old babptist grandmas blowing stuff up so therefore most Muslims are grouped in with the bad even though they are not all radical. Just the law of averages in most cases.


    6. Oh no, now the angry mob is gonna go after you too! Ill transfer all the hate mail to your account ;-)

      I'm still a bit amazed how stirred up a lot of people got, and I think I can profile the comments - the nice, clean ones (even if they disagreed with me) are the good people, and the hateful comments filled with names I couldn't print, and accusations that were untrue could be the people I'm talking about. Did I just profile again? Darn.

      Oh, BTW, I agree with your analogy.

  30. Ive been to the Paiute Trail , twice with my ATV. I sold it and bought a rzr-s so I could take my dog my along with me at local areas in Northern Calf.If any of you have tried to ride any motorized vehicles in Calif. [offroad] , I think you would understand Dougs point better.The Paiute Trail is a precious jewel ,that the offroad community cannot afford to lose! When we make 50' trails into 60' trails , do we then make them into 70' trails & so on.In my opinion this trail system is for scenic riding , thats why I go there.Yes, I am planning another trip to the Paiute , this time with the stock rzr-s & I will have no problem staying off trails that are not desinated for my machine!

  31. Wow...

    What bothers me the most is that Doug's posts here usually get at most a dozen replies when assume-ably they are generally agreed with. And yet when there is some disagreement they seem to pour in. What a way to say thanks... (sarcasm) I don't always agree with Doug (though I usually do) but I post just as often either way. I for one am glad to have someone like Doug that has a knowledge base and willing to voice and honest opinion. So often in this industry it isn't that way. People who give opinions usually lack the information to make them worth listening to. And people who have the information are paid to get it and don't give an unvarnished opinion at the risk of interfering with their paycheck. What Doug does is EXTREMELY VALUABLE for people who claim to love this sport. Lets not beat him up for doing what we value him for.

    Thank You for what you do Doug. God Bless you and your family.

    All that said I understand what Doug is saying, and I don't totally agree. I live in NY and I advocate like crazy for any and all OHV as much as I can. That includes UTV's which BTW are illegal here when over 1000lbs dry (basically anything but the RZR)and Sleds which in this area HATE ATV's (and can seemingly do no wrong politically.)

    My opinion... lets split hairs about who, what, and where later. Let them enforce their regulations, how about some officials out there on the trails. How about some speed limits, trail cameras/speed cameras, maybe check points...? Who knows?! Lets just weed out the "tools" who wreck it for the rest of us. Anybody I catch screwing it up for the rest of us gets reported. License number, picture, and if they give me a hard time blood sample. JK about the blood sample... or am I?! I challenge everyone to do the same!

  32. We met Doug while in Marysvale and He gave us good info on different trails,we were in our RZR570 first time in the area I think Doug has right ideas,I live in Salton City,ca. and just outside Octillo wells ohv park,so I have seen just about every type of rider, but Steve &Bea see the beauty of the areas we Ride!!!!!!!!
    thanks a lot
    We will be Back To Pauite Trail area soon.